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 Undead vs. Orc

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FiLLy[iP]




Posts : 7
Join date : 2008-05-04

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PostSubject: Undead vs. Orc   Undead vs. Orc EmptyMon May 05, 2008 6:53 pm

Trust me I know all about UD vs. OC and I'm pro at knowing how to pwn OC with UD it's really simple really, you just gotta know what to do, and here's the information to do so:

Undead vs. Orc is supposedly one of the most imbalanced match ups in the game (orc sided). This is true in some sense, but generally it just means the player really needs to give it their all if they want to win.



Expansions
First of all, do not let the orc get an expansion while you don't have one. You need to constantly make sure they do not expo, just like you'd do vs. any other race. Orcs tend to expo when they get tier 2, so be aware of that; learn when most orcs reach tier 2. At tier 2: if they expoed, they are going to put pressure on you with a second hero and raiders/wind riders. If they didn't expo, their push will be stronger (didn't spend that money on expo). When you find his expo, try to take it down and/or build one of your own. Generally, if you have good micro you can beat orc when you both have the same income. If you have an expo and he doesn't, just like vs any other race, you're bound to win. Remember, if you can't take an expo out, counter expo. Put a few spirits at your expo, and a frost tower.



Surrounds
When going ghouls, always go for grunt surrounds. Practice surrounding moving units, you just need to stay calm and focused when doing them. It's just a quick few moves and that's all it takes. Grunts have a large pathing size, so it takes only about 4 units to surround them. This also means it takes about 4 grunts to surround you (your hero). There is a map designed for practicing surrounding, which can be found here: http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66084



Early Game
Start off with ghouls and later switch to fiends, because he's bound to go air to counter you. If you aren't so great with your ghoul micro, it's a big map, or you simply prefer/are better with fiends, don't be afraid to start with them. You see this less often in pro games, but it can be really effective. There are ghoul-users and there are fiend-users. Always scout with an aco to see what he's up to; there are a variety of orc strats in which I'll list below. Get your shop before your hero comes out, get a rod (and dust if he went BM) and go harrass his base/creeping.



Mid Game
When you get enough lumber for tier 2, have your ghouls creep while you harrass, so you aren't losing your creeping abilities. Get stats while you tech to tier 3. I prefer getting my Lich, teching to tier 3, and then getting my 2 Slaughters up, but some do in different order. Your destros are the most important thing, but your Lich will carry you through your vulnerable tier 2.



Late Game
Undead is all about the late game. It is important to carry an invuln pot on at least one of your heroes, and switch it around when necessary. After you coil, your Lich will be vulnerable because of the cooldown, so keep that in mind. Destroyers are what can save games vs orc. Chain morph them for full mana, and attack all his burrows and get out so he's screwed, food wise. Attacking him if he has fortified defense will not do much, this should be scouted beforehand. This will delay him a huge amount, and will usually force him to attack you because of the time that he's going to lose and the resources it's going to cost him. If it's possible, take his peons too so he's utterly screwed and can't do anymore building (unless he had an expo). When killing the burrows, be aware he's going to TP and suicide his bats, so have healing scrolls and coils ready. It's worth losing a few units to kill all of his burrows, because think how much more he's put behind. The safer way to do it, is to kill burrows and TP out while he's TPing, therefore you gain the advantage, and no units lost. Get a spirit tower in your base if you want; if you defend his push if he does it, you've pretty much won the game. Set up an expo if you wish and go to his base to finish off his new burrows.

If he is going mass raiders, don't be afraid to mix it up a bit and go mass aboms. Aboms are much better melee than raiders, especially with your coil/frost armor (and/or dark ritual), aura, and stats support. He may switch to air, but in that case get fiends + web. Aboms won't die to air anytime soon. Beware of kodos (nuke them; ignore everything else).



Orc Hero Combos
There are a few different hero combinations orcs usually go for. FS/TC is pretty common for chain/wave, which can rip your ghouls apart. If you went fiends, the TC is most likely going to get stomp, so you may want to get frost armor (usually go frost armor with fiends anyways, unless vs mass air; dark ritual for ghouls unless getting fiends later). Go for surrounds on the FS, because he is weak. If he has a hp pot, just add 150 hp to his max and see if you're units will live long enough to kill him. If you have to run through a bunch of units and a TC to get to the FS, don't bother, especially if both of his heroes have mana. Check their mana to see when they going to use chain/wave, whcih they'll use simultaneously. When facing chainwave, your ghouls will be pretty useless until you get healing scrolls, and ghoul frenzy. Creep up until then.

BM/TC can be annoying, but not if you get a shade. Shades render the BM almost useless, and he is very easy to kill; focus/nuke him. If you want to try something fun, fake the existence of your shade, and by this I mean focus the BM until he windwalks and he isn't bothering you, and focus something else. When/if he comes back and hits one of your units, do more damage to until he windwalks again. Now he thinks you do not have a shade, until you unleash your nukes on him:). Every good orc gets boots of speed on their BM, so be aware of his increased movement speed.

BM/SH can be quite annoying with hex, but they more often do it when you start with fiends. You want to focus more of your damage on the SH, and leave the BM till after the SH is dead/ran away. Expect him to use healing wave at points, so don't nuke him thinking he's going to die right away. Again, get a shade vs the BM.



Fast-Teching Orcs
This usually involves them going FS first and harassing your base with wolves, trying to distract you as much as possible while going strait to tier 2; no barracks. Your scout aco can tell if he's fast teching simply if you see no barracks, him teching, and usually a shop. What you want to do is build a frost tower early to fend off his harassment, while pressuring the FS with attempted surrounds. If you can get one, great, but if you can't, and he's just running around trying to get you off-track, I'd just ignore him and head strait to his base. He's more concerned about defending his base than he is about attacking yours. On bigger maps, he is probably going to go dual beast, mass wind riders, but you can never be sure. What you do vs this is go dual crypts, mass fiends. Tech to tier 2 when you have 4+ fiends, because those are for pushing his base and wasting gold on his repairs. You'll need web and burrow at tier 2. DO NOT get a slaughterhouse if he is massing wind riders, they can take down statues in 2 seconds. If he isn't making mass air, you can get a slaughterhouse and a second hero and tech to tier 3, and it will continue as a normal game. If you keep enough pressure vs mass air, your fiends will handle themselves with coil, aura, and burrow.

If you don't manage to keep pressure on his base, it will be very hard for you to beat the mass amounts of air with just fiends. Late game you'll want tri hero of DK, Lich, PL (PL can be 2nd or 3rd, pending/preference). Web all of his air and nuke/aoe all of the air; ignore the heroes. You'll need upgrades on your fiends (at least 1-1), scroll of protection, scroll of healing x2. Do not get a slaughterhouse, again, because the statues die in 1 second. You have quite a shopping list, so you may want to try and sneak an expo, while trying to take his expo out. This strategy is one of the those where orc can still beat you without expo.

On small maps, such as Echo Isles, watch out for FS fast tech, but this time he may be doing it a little different. He may go for FS FL summons push, with dual beasts for raiders. He may even throw in demos/kodos/air or whatever he wants into the mix. Sadly, I lost to this in a 1v1 bnet tourney, and it's the first time I've seen it used vs. , so I can't help you too much here. I'll just tell you don't be fooled once you see FS fast tech and execute dual crypt, mass fiends like I did, because he spiced it up a bit and I lost miserably. Sad Try something different like necros and silence, maybe.



To add in a few more tips:
When vs air, put your orb on your DK instead, because you're getting the same effect as if the Lich had it, except now the DK is adding to the damage. Do this when you don't have enough fiends for webbing everything, and you think they'll die.
When facing a high level TC late game and you have some extra resources, get a DL third. Spam sleep him while you take care of the rest of his army, it'll annoy him and he'll be missing crucial timings of his simultaneous chain lightning + shockwave (or stomp).
If you see him teching to tier 3, right now is a good time to hit his base before he gets fortified burrows/towers. Destros won’t be needed so much after he gets tier 3, because of the fortified defense.
Remember that orc’s primary target is fiends, so it's a good idea to get an armor upgrade on them. This also carries over to your destro's armor, and it makes them very hard to kill (even with bats).



Hope you guys enjoyed this guide, I know a lot of you people knew this stuff, but hopefully it helped those who didn't. I'll edit this as I learn new things, and there will definitely be more guides from me to come!
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music[tm]




Posts : 16
Join date : 2008-04-15

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PostSubject: Re: Undead vs. Orc   Undead vs. Orc EmptyTue May 06, 2008 6:19 pm

hey, these are very nice writeups and very helpful for me. ive been having trouble just understanding the matchups and this certainly helps a bunch
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endozero




Posts : 17
Join date : 2008-04-18

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PostSubject: Re: Undead vs. Orc   Undead vs. Orc EmptyWed May 07, 2008 2:41 am

wow good ... did u actually type this all out and post it?
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FiLLy[iP]




Posts : 7
Join date : 2008-05-04

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PostSubject: Re: Undead vs. Orc   Undead vs. Orc EmptyFri May 09, 2008 2:04 pm

yeah, I typed it all, I made this strategy guide like half a year ago but never shared it
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camindaR




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Join date : 2008-04-17

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PostSubject: Re: Undead vs. Orc   Undead vs. Orc EmptySat May 10, 2008 5:12 pm

personally, i need help on how to dominate undead with orc.... fiend nuke is so gay!

i think im missing scroll of speed to catch up to fiends...
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BaM




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Join date : 2008-05-25

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PostSubject: Re: Undead vs. Orc   Undead vs. Orc EmptyMon May 26, 2008 10:18 am

Great Guide Smile

On small maps I always get Bm/tc wyvrens and invurn potion on bm to mess them up.

On big maps Fs/tc (I always get stomp) and harass with fs and creep with grunts
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